Friday, September 5, 2014
Wednesday, August 27, 2014
The wages of sin is...?
Ok. The answer is simple to anyone who has stepped into a church in the last 2000 years. Death. But before I go into the purpose for this blog, let me explain how this connects to heresies and hermeneutics.
In my city in Mexico there is a new group with not so new of a message. There are other teachings in this "church" that are questionable, but one of them is that Jesus died physically on the cross and then afterwards went to hell and died spiritually. Yes, they say he died twice. And over 4000 people have left solid, Bible teaching, Christian orthodox churches to join this group. Why?
My first thought was that maybe they just had not been taught well enough to know a heresy when they hear it. But I soon found out that some of those who had left HAD been taught and discipled by great men of God who teach the Bible as well as anyone! Finally we had a chance to meet one and get to know this person to ask why they chose to attend a church that was so obviously controversial. Their answer is the reason for this blog.
My friend told me that the idea that Jesus also went to hell and died caused them to be even more grateful for the price Jesus paid for our sins. My friend then asked me something that made me rethink my outlook on a doctrine that I had been taught all my life, and most of us have too.
The question was, "If people go to hell for their sins for eternity and die die spiritually for the sin of Adam, and if Adam died spiritually as a result of his sin, then for Jesus to have paid ALL MY PENALTY then Jesus had to die spiritually and go to hell to suffer for me.
Sadly, I was not ready to answer the question at that time except to insist that the Bible did say he died once for all sins, and that no verse directly taught that when he went to hell he also died and suffered there. For me that was enough, but it made me think.
So lets look at what the Bible does say, and what the Bible does not say about the penalty for sin and the penalty that Adam suffered.
1) The penalty for sin is death. Adam was told if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
2) All of the old and new testament says and implies that it is physical death that is the "penalty" for sin.
3) People and angels do not go to hell for their sin, they go to Hell for rejecting God and his authority and not being found in the "Book of Life." (more on this in a minute)
4) It is only in passages that infer that we are "darkened from God's knowledge" and "cannot understand spiritual things" or are in "the kingdom of the Prince of the air," etc., etc. that we can infer that we die spiritually for sins.
5) It is in church tradition that we hear more exposition of the concept that we die spiritually for sin.
If these statements are wrong, then we are forced to answer the question of how exactly did Jesus die spiritually? Was it when he said, "My God My God, Why have you forsaken me?" This creates the dilemma of how God can be separated from God, even for an instant. This has led to other heresies like Jesus stopped being God for a moment when he uttered these words. Or else, his human nature was separate from his deity which makes him half God and half man...both are heresy.
Alternately we would be saying that Jesus did in fact die twice, once before he died physically on the cross when he died spiritually, and once afterwards, physically on the cross.
Ocaam's Razor dictates that the simplest answer is most likely the right one. This is applicable when all answer create some type of dilemma. This seems to be the case here.
What does spiritual death look like? When Adam sinned the next next chapter states that God placed an Angel at the entrance to the garden so Adam or Eve could not eat from the tree and live forever. And the very next chapter records that Adam died. So this surely means that when God said when you eat from the tree you will surely die. This could not mean that he would die immediately when he ate. Because that did not happen. He certainly died eventually over 900 years later. But he died. And to say that the Spiritual death was immediate but the physical death was 900 years later is just bad hermeneutics.
I agree that there were natural consequences of sinning, such as losing God's favor but not the relationship (God spoke with him later and Adam heard and understood God, guilt, shame, conviction, judgement, etc. etc.) and you cannot be separated from an omnipresent God. You can only lose access to his favor, blessings, hesed-love, special graces, though even the worst of sinners has some sort of a relationship with God..."In him we all live, move and have our being." Ok. enough on that dilemma.
Also it is curious that Jesus says "If you believe in me then you will never die" and "I do not judge you but my words will judge you in the end." These phrases and more cause me to wonder if the penalty for all mankind for sin is that they do "taste death"...and all men die, and then comes the judgment. However, if we accept the forgiveness of Christ, we do not die but are transformed immediately into our eternal new bodies and are never judged.
If these are true then it makes more sense, hermeneutically and theologically to say that the wages for sin is physical death followed by the second resurrection and the Great White Throne of Judgment. (Blessed are those who the second death has no part) where the judgment is based on works that show their conscious acknowledgment of God and his authority along with all of the angels who rejected God's authority. Also if Hell was created for angels, then it doesnt make easy sense that Hell was also created for man to pay the penalty for his sins. It makes more sense to say that hell was created for all of those in all heaven and earth who reject God as their authority and reject his offer for forgiveness.
By making this subtle distinctions in our verbiage, preaching and teaching then we can say that Jesus died physically to pay for our sins on the cross...Paid in full. If we accept that then we are freed from the power of sin and death. For those who reject that, they will die and then they will be judged..for those who heard the gospel, it will be based on rejecting Jesus' words in the gospel, as our Lord said. If they do not hear the gospel then it will be based on whatever Jesus through his Spirit has revealed to them...which will NEVER contradict the Bible (for those who think this means I am endorsing salvation through other means than Jesus and his revelation)
If this is true, then Jesus did not go to Hell and die or suffer a spiritual death or it would mean that he did die twice or did go to Hell suffer and die a second time. No matter how you word it we are forced to take the scripture for what it says, "He died ONCE FOR ALL SINS" or add our own interpretations or even worse, "New Revelations" to say that he died twice. Once physically and once spiritually.
Many of these statements I am totally open to be challenged on, and I may be wrong on many counts...at this point, I dont think so (wink, wink) but I am open to correction. However for certain, this has caused me to rethink and re-evaluate the things I have been "taught" that are not clearly stated in the Bible which may create more problems with the clear teachings of Scripture about God and his nature. It has caused me to dig deeper...as Proverbs 25:2 teaches "It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out." I hope this has challenged you to do the same.
In my city in Mexico there is a new group with not so new of a message. There are other teachings in this "church" that are questionable, but one of them is that Jesus died physically on the cross and then afterwards went to hell and died spiritually. Yes, they say he died twice. And over 4000 people have left solid, Bible teaching, Christian orthodox churches to join this group. Why?
My first thought was that maybe they just had not been taught well enough to know a heresy when they hear it. But I soon found out that some of those who had left HAD been taught and discipled by great men of God who teach the Bible as well as anyone! Finally we had a chance to meet one and get to know this person to ask why they chose to attend a church that was so obviously controversial. Their answer is the reason for this blog.
My friend told me that the idea that Jesus also went to hell and died caused them to be even more grateful for the price Jesus paid for our sins. My friend then asked me something that made me rethink my outlook on a doctrine that I had been taught all my life, and most of us have too.
The question was, "If people go to hell for their sins for eternity and die die spiritually for the sin of Adam, and if Adam died spiritually as a result of his sin, then for Jesus to have paid ALL MY PENALTY then Jesus had to die spiritually and go to hell to suffer for me.
Sadly, I was not ready to answer the question at that time except to insist that the Bible did say he died once for all sins, and that no verse directly taught that when he went to hell he also died and suffered there. For me that was enough, but it made me think.
So lets look at what the Bible does say, and what the Bible does not say about the penalty for sin and the penalty that Adam suffered.
1) The penalty for sin is death. Adam was told if he ate from the tree, he would surely die.
2) All of the old and new testament says and implies that it is physical death that is the "penalty" for sin.
3) People and angels do not go to hell for their sin, they go to Hell for rejecting God and his authority and not being found in the "Book of Life." (more on this in a minute)
4) It is only in passages that infer that we are "darkened from God's knowledge" and "cannot understand spiritual things" or are in "the kingdom of the Prince of the air," etc., etc. that we can infer that we die spiritually for sins.
5) It is in church tradition that we hear more exposition of the concept that we die spiritually for sin.
If these statements are wrong, then we are forced to answer the question of how exactly did Jesus die spiritually? Was it when he said, "My God My God, Why have you forsaken me?" This creates the dilemma of how God can be separated from God, even for an instant. This has led to other heresies like Jesus stopped being God for a moment when he uttered these words. Or else, his human nature was separate from his deity which makes him half God and half man...both are heresy.
Alternately we would be saying that Jesus did in fact die twice, once before he died physically on the cross when he died spiritually, and once afterwards, physically on the cross.
Ocaam's Razor dictates that the simplest answer is most likely the right one. This is applicable when all answer create some type of dilemma. This seems to be the case here.
What does spiritual death look like? When Adam sinned the next next chapter states that God placed an Angel at the entrance to the garden so Adam or Eve could not eat from the tree and live forever. And the very next chapter records that Adam died. So this surely means that when God said when you eat from the tree you will surely die. This could not mean that he would die immediately when he ate. Because that did not happen. He certainly died eventually over 900 years later. But he died. And to say that the Spiritual death was immediate but the physical death was 900 years later is just bad hermeneutics.
I agree that there were natural consequences of sinning, such as losing God's favor but not the relationship (God spoke with him later and Adam heard and understood God, guilt, shame, conviction, judgement, etc. etc.) and you cannot be separated from an omnipresent God. You can only lose access to his favor, blessings, hesed-love, special graces, though even the worst of sinners has some sort of a relationship with God..."In him we all live, move and have our being." Ok. enough on that dilemma.
Also it is curious that Jesus says "If you believe in me then you will never die" and "I do not judge you but my words will judge you in the end." These phrases and more cause me to wonder if the penalty for all mankind for sin is that they do "taste death"...and all men die, and then comes the judgment. However, if we accept the forgiveness of Christ, we do not die but are transformed immediately into our eternal new bodies and are never judged.
If these are true then it makes more sense, hermeneutically and theologically to say that the wages for sin is physical death followed by the second resurrection and the Great White Throne of Judgment. (Blessed are those who the second death has no part) where the judgment is based on works that show their conscious acknowledgment of God and his authority along with all of the angels who rejected God's authority. Also if Hell was created for angels, then it doesnt make easy sense that Hell was also created for man to pay the penalty for his sins. It makes more sense to say that hell was created for all of those in all heaven and earth who reject God as their authority and reject his offer for forgiveness.
By making this subtle distinctions in our verbiage, preaching and teaching then we can say that Jesus died physically to pay for our sins on the cross...Paid in full. If we accept that then we are freed from the power of sin and death. For those who reject that, they will die and then they will be judged..for those who heard the gospel, it will be based on rejecting Jesus' words in the gospel, as our Lord said. If they do not hear the gospel then it will be based on whatever Jesus through his Spirit has revealed to them...which will NEVER contradict the Bible (for those who think this means I am endorsing salvation through other means than Jesus and his revelation)
If this is true, then Jesus did not go to Hell and die or suffer a spiritual death or it would mean that he did die twice or did go to Hell suffer and die a second time. No matter how you word it we are forced to take the scripture for what it says, "He died ONCE FOR ALL SINS" or add our own interpretations or even worse, "New Revelations" to say that he died twice. Once physically and once spiritually.
Many of these statements I am totally open to be challenged on, and I may be wrong on many counts...at this point, I dont think so (wink, wink) but I am open to correction. However for certain, this has caused me to rethink and re-evaluate the things I have been "taught" that are not clearly stated in the Bible which may create more problems with the clear teachings of Scripture about God and his nature. It has caused me to dig deeper...as Proverbs 25:2 teaches "It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out." I hope this has challenged you to do the same.
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